Curse

**cosyfiep** · Aug 07, 2006, 05:14 AM // 05:14

hm, lets see.....I am old and my reflexes are getting slower than the kids who play....I cant seem to do things as fast any more.
I LIKE pve, its more fun to kill things than people. (isnt there a commandment about killing people?).

Until last month my laptop I used to play GW on succked, no graphics card, no sound card, not much of anything....could barely play at all....and you want me to play vs real people who have elite GAMING computers??????????? (and who spend hours and hours in front of video games as a way of life.....well buddy, I am a woman with a career who only recently ever played a computer game and the last video game I can remember was mrs pacman...and I sucked at that as well---pong anyone?).......

I dont have fun in pvp, I play pve because I can whenever I want to without waiting for a group to pick me with my sorry-excuse-for-a-build...I hench a lot, I go where I want to go and killl those things that need to be killed and ignore others who will also ignore me.

Those are my reasons/excuses and I am sticking to them

Wyldchild777 · Aug 07, 2006, 05:47 AM // 05:47

Greetings,

Well, long thread to try and jump in on, but here goes...

Short Answer:
Because I can't hench in PvP.

Long Answer:
A good summation to the following would be: because of the immaturity found among the playerbase. This level of immaturity is (I feel) a direct result of the anonymous nature of the internet, coupled with immature players who can only feel good about themselves by attempting to belittle others.

Now, I've read this entire thread so far. This has already been brought up and rebutted as being not exclusive to PvP. I do agree. It isn't confined to PvP. There is a lot of it in PvE as well. The problem is that PvP is a lot more confined to areas you can be in than PvE is. As a PvP character, you can go to the Temple of Balthazar, Random Arenas, Team Arenas, Hero's Ascent, the various Zaiten challenges, Guild Hall for GvG, and the Alliance Battles. Compare that to PvE, where you can go to any of the close to 30 towns and outposts in Tyria and nearly as, or just as, many towns and outposts in Cantha. It's sort of like a filtering effect. Three drops of food coloring in a cup of water as opposed to a gallon of water, if you will.

Now, as for me personally, I just cannot tolerate immaturity, in most any kind of form. Leetspeak, "I'm better than you" attitudes, racial slurs, sexual innuendos, gaybashing, and just plain old elitism top the long list of examples of immaturity. All of these types of behavior are just nothing more than immature, close-minded behavior. Now, I do qualify immaturity by saying that it has nothing to do with chronological age. I've met plenty of early to mid teenagers who are a lot more mature than their 25-40 year old player counterparts. The problem lies in the fact that with PvP, there is a lot less areas to go to, so there is a greater concentration, per capita if you will, in the PvP areas than the PvE areas.

As far as the eliteism/cookie-cutterism, it has just as much of a presence in PvE as it does in PvP. Having trouble getting into a HoH group without rank or without running IWAY? Try getting into a ToPK group without running a barrage/pet build. Before it was fixed, try getting into a Sorrow's Furnace group that wasn't a 5-man gear exploit group. For me, however, the PvE problem is mitigated by the fact that I can take henchmen into those same areas without having to run the cookie-cutter builds. If I want to try to run a non-minion death necro, or a smiting monk (PvE side), or a sword ranger, or a beastmaster ranger, or any number of unusual builds, I could grab a henchie group and go.

However, to play with others, be they PuG or friends list or guildies, I have to conform, at least somewhat, to the cookie-cutter mentality. The reason for this is multifaceted, but it boils down, as far as I can tell, to time. Most people want the fastest team build possible. The one that can run the area the quickest.

Now, in PvP, the reason may vary, but the end-result is the same. People want the build that will have the greatest chance of winning against other players. The cookie-cutter mentality is still present. However, in PvP, if you wish to run a non-standard build, there are no henchmen you can take along. In fact, the only place to have henchmen, where true PvP happens (aka - not Temple of Balth), is in Hero's Ascent. But, there is only four of them in an area that needs an eight-person group.

Now, I not so anti-cookie-cutter that I won't run a plain-vanilla established build. It's just that it's plain vanilla. There's no variety to it. No creativity once it becomes an accepted strategy. If I want to play a sword-wielding, sever artery, apply poison ranger (for degen-stacking), I would have much more luck doing it in PvE than in PvP. Because, if I can find no-one who wants to run with my sword-wielding fool

, then the henchmen are there to fill the void.

Now, as all good rule-of-thumb comments must have, there are exceptions to this.

First - Random Arenas. There is really no way you can expect a cookie-cutter build there because all grouping is out of your control. Hence, random. People know this, and accept this. In fact, I believe that some of the more esoteric builds do have their origins in RA (not that I'd ever be able to confirm this, it's just a feeling that I have). The reason is because in the other places, the cookie-cutter builds are dominating because people find them reliable. People go to RA to, basically, screw around, test out unique builds, and so on.

Second - Alliance Battles. Once again with the random, but this time, it's in the format of 4man teams you can control grouped with 2 other 4man teams you can't control. There is so much to do here - focused capping, capping/holding, mass engagements - that there is room for a more unique style of play than in the more formalized areas of PvP.

Now, I do occasionally dabble around in PvP, in RA and AB, for the above reasons. It's not locked into the cookie-cutter mentality and not reliant on taking henchmen to play a unique build.

As for the rest of PvP, well, the rest of the playerbase can have them. I'm not interested in rank, so no HoH. I'm not interested in competing in the GWWC (is that the right acronym?), so no GvG. TA is accepted by many, myself included, to be a training grounds for HoH and GvG, so I won't be there as well. As for PvE, at least I can count on my friendly neighborhood henchmen to be there for me when I need them.

By the way, as a closing caveat, the preceding summations are solely my opinions and interpretations. There are many, obviously, who would disagree. I have no problems with their viewpoints belong to them, as long no one attempts to force those views upon me. Just remember the phrase - Your mileage may vary.

Merry meet, merry met, merry meet again,
Wyldchild777

Symbol · Aug 07, 2006, 06:02 AM // 06:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gli

* In the Competitive Missions I can only control 6.25% of the playing field. (Myself)
* In RA I can only control 12.5% of the playing field. (Myself).
* In AB I can only control 16.666...% of the playing field. (My sub-team)
* In TA and GvG I can only control 50% of the playing field. (My team)
* In HA the percentage varies with the number of opposing teams.

And so? In PvE you have 0 control over the composition of mobs, yet you aren't complaining about that How is this relevant at all?

merdle · Aug 07, 2006, 06:31 AM // 06:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symbol

And so? In PvE you have 0 control over the composition of mobs, yet you aren't complaining about that How is this relevant at all?

it's okay, it's quite obvious at this point that he is just jaded.

Before I figured he just hadn't explored the different aspects of PvP enough. But it seems that his actual complaint is that other people playing actually want to win all the time. He prefers PvE because there is zero humans on the other side, He knows what is in his party, and will over time know the challenge that each enemy represents.

It's admirable, but not my cup of tea. I find the predictable mobs in PvE boring past the first time through. And knowing if i'm not playing one of the cookie cutter builds, I can't just grab a pug group.

I've always wondered what attraction people get from GW PvE. Outside of getting cool looking armor, good runes and weapons for PvP... what the heck is everyone working towards?

if all the good PvE MMOs didn't have monthly fees, i'd wonder why people bothered to continue PvEing at all.

Andy_M · Aug 07, 2006, 07:09 AM // 07:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by merdle

it's okay, it's quite obvious at this point that he is just jaded.

Before I figured he just hadn't explored the different aspects of PvP enough. But it seems that his actual complaint is that other people playing actually want to win all the time. He prefers PvE because there is zero humans on the other side, He knows what is in his party, and will over time know the challenge that each enemy represents.

It's admirable, but not my cup of tea. I find the predictable mobs in PvE boring past the first time through. And knowing if i'm not playing one of the cookie cutter builds, I can't just grab a pug group.

I've always wondered what attraction people get from GW PvE. Outside of getting cool looking armor, good runes and weapons for PvP... what the heck is everyone working towards?

if all the good PvE MMOs didn't have monthly fees, i'd wonder why people bothered to continue PvEing at all.

Stop thinking that everyone else sees pve as the gateway to pvp. Thats what Anet wants us all to do. Personally I enjoy mucking about with new characters and builds in a pressure/elitist free environment. PvP just isn't for some people, learn to accept that.

Nexus Icon · Aug 07, 2006, 07:31 AM // 07:31

Why don't I PvP?
Because it's all about getting the right build rather than individual skill.
It's luck of the draw.
PvP in RPGs is for people who suck at other, more balanced competetive games, such as RTS games or FPS games.

RPGs are about developing a character and following a storyline. Due to their very nature they will always be inherently unbalanced.

The only PvP in GW that I feel is even remotely fair are the random PvPs where people can't organise builds and therefore have to rely on their wits.
And these gametypes are plagued by ragequitting idiots or faction-leeching halfwits.

Best just not to PvP in GW at all to be honest.
I'd rather play Quake instead.

merdle · Aug 07, 2006, 07:54 AM // 07:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andy_M

Stop thinking that everyone else sees pve as the gateway to pvp. Thats what Anet wants us all to do. Personally I enjoy mucking about with new characters and builds in a pressure/elitist free environment. PvP just isn't for some people, learn to accept that.

if you weren't trying to jump and attack someone, you might have realised, that's what I was talking about. In your qoute I talk about how I (as in me, personally) think that PvE is boring. Then I ask the question why people still PvE.

Yeah, I think EVERYONE sees PvE as a gateway. lol

Winstar · Aug 07, 2006, 09:03 AM // 09:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nexus Icon

Why don't I PvP?
Because it's all about getting the right build rather than individual skill.
It's luck of the draw.
PvP in RPGs is for people who suck at other, more balanced competetive games, such as RTS games or FPS games.

RPGs are about developing a character and following a storyline. Due to their very nature they will always be inherently unbalanced.

The only PvP in GW that I feel is even remotely fair are the random PvPs where people can't organise builds and therefore have to rely on their wits.
And these gametypes are plagued by ragequitting idiots or faction-leeching halfwits.

Best just not to PvP in GW at all to be honest.
I'd rather play Quake instead.

1) I have no clue why you think your first statement is true. But nice job jumping out and insulting every PvPer in the game right off.

2) What do character development and storyline have to do with balanced play mechanics? In most RPG's the PvE elements of the game strive for a degree of balance. Second, guildwars PvP and PvE are in many ways autonomous elements. The PvP aspect is pretty much distinct from the PvE storyline elements. The only overlap is skill capping and item unlocking, both of which can be done without ever playing the PvE aspect of the game. So even if there was some sense to be made of the claim that RPG's and balance cannot coexist it wouldn't make a difference for PvP.

3) You seem to be missing the entire point of competative PvP in the GW environment. The skill and strategy doesn't merely arise from being a reflex junkie but from being able to create effective characters and teams from a pool of available skills in order to execute a particular strategy. The non-randomness of team building and coordination is absolutely essential to the skilled elements of PvP. Why is this not fair? Your wits still come into play since you don't know what you are going to be facing in a particular mathcup and you don't know what moves the other team will make during a match which forces your team to react. There is a metagame, but part of the challenge arise from analyzing it and trying to be prepared for a variety of circumstances. Along with this there certainly is individual play skill. Teams succeed because the people are doing their job. Not every team can simply pick up a build and win with it. I've played a lot of teams (and while learning certain builds expienced the same) who are stuck in the bottom end of the ladder even though they are running pretty much identical builds to top ranked teams. The difference is they don't know how to play it with skill.

Look, I like roleplaying. I like PvE. But I also really enjoy PvP and find it to be the more enjoyable part of GW (for me) at this point. But I haven't come out and insulted PvE players, but you've been a complete asshole and you don't seem to know what you're talking about. Sorry, but I can't take posts like this sometimes. GAWD.

The thread is about why people don't play PvP. Over 12 bloody pages people have been discussing this. There are some legitimate barriers, there are some legitimate solutions. But really its a matter of preference in the end. You either enjoy it or you don't. But for God's sake at least be fair about your assessment of one side or the other rather than chucking out insults. This should apply for either side.

fallot · Aug 07, 2006, 09:23 AM // 09:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nexus Icon

Why don't I PvP?
Because it's all about getting the right build rather than individual skill.
It's luck of the draw.

Your significant experience at the top of the ladder gives this seemingly flawed opinion a lot of credibility. Sarcasm aside, GW PvP is very deep and not so build dependant at all. There are a lot of tactics involved (esp. GvG). Sometimes there may be broken combinations of skills that allow guilds to climb the ladder but those are inevitably changed and are no reason to avoid playing such a great aspect of the game. Watch [WM], [EviL] etc. their builds are nothing special but their tactics on the map are superb.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nexus Icon

PvP in RPGs is for people who suck at other, more balanced competetive games, such as RTS games or FPS games.

In general this is true. However GW PvP has nothing to do with the RPG aspect of the game. If I had to give it a genre, I'd call it Action-RTS.

fb2000 · Aug 07, 2006, 09:36 AM // 09:36

I wouldnt say its "very deep", but it does offer you decent choices, and call all in all be nice.if a pve junkie friend of mine said its ultra fun (took her once for a coupla rounds in TA), i guess its true

and no, i dont see how having a certain skillbar would make you a good player.i can understand how being the newbie is very very annoying (go try to find a decent group for any organized pvp, takes forever), but there are solutions for it. So please refrain from commenting something, unless you have done it to at least a certain degree

Gli · Aug 07, 2006, 09:38 AM // 09:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by merdle

it's okay, it's quite obvious at this point that he is just jaded.

Before I figured he just hadn't explored the different aspects of PvP enough. But it seems that his actual complaint is that other people playing actually want to win all the time. He prefers PvE because there is zero humans on the other side, He knows what is in his party, and will over time know the challenge that each enemy represents.

It's admirable, but not my cup of tea. I find the predictable mobs in PvE boring past the first time through. And knowing if i'm not playing one of the cookie cutter builds, I can't just grab a pug group.

I've always wondered what attraction people get from GW PvE. Outside of getting cool looking armor, good runes and weapons for PvP... what the heck is everyone working towards?

if all the good PvE MMOs didn't have monthly fees, i'd wonder why people bothered to continue PvEing at all.

What attracts me to PvE? Simple, I can create my own challenges.

Here's a number of things I've done: (solo or with guildies)

Clear out most of the FoW with 2 monks and 3 mesmers.
Get the Advanced Skill Hunter title as well as the Protector and Grand Master Cartographer titles for both continents on a new Factions character. (Trivial challenges, but well... getting them done takes a bit of effort and dedication.)
Solo Hell's Precipice including the bonus. All alone, no henchies, using a runner/elemental tank/damage dealer warrior. I fell short of killing the lich. I think I could've done it but it was taking too long, I had RL creeping up on me.
Solo the Defend Denravi Titan quest, again without henchies. Not just killing some Titans, but finishing the quest.

(The last two were a long time before the recent warrior damage reduction nerf. I'm not sure if I could still do them. Maybe I should go and find out.

Zui · Aug 07, 2006, 11:00 AM // 11:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by fallot

GW PvP has nothing to do with the RPG aspect of the game. If I had to give it a genre, I'd call it Action-RTS.

QFT.

As a big RTS fan, I thought I'd hate Guild Wars. Until I tryed PvP, and realised how much strategy it required, unlike the massive amount of Grind-based PvP in other games like World of Warcraft.

A Leprechaun · Aug 07, 2006, 11:06 AM // 11:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winstar

in a particular mathcup

lol you said mathcup

{*>RANDOM<*}

^_^

~A Leprechaun

Omega X · Aug 07, 2006, 11:17 AM // 11:17

Meh. This thread has been derailed off a cliff.

The reason why I don't PvP(much)?

Read the entire thread. 90% of the reasons stated. 1% of it was stated by the rabid PvPers waiting to respond to every reason ever.

Loomy · Aug 07, 2006, 01:47 PM // 13:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crimson Ashwood

it's quite a knock to somebodies confidence when you rock in to PvP with your fully worked on PvE character (not having read a forum or a wiki) to get destroyed and pounded by Mr. clever build and his tactics.

I think this is why JADE QUARRY and FORT ASPENWOOD exist. It's PVP for only PVE characters.

So why doesn't anyone play them?!?!

Mithie · Aug 07, 2006, 05:31 PM // 17:31

In response to Cosyfiep and some of the others that said GW's PvP is too twitchy and tense, and that they'd prefer a more relaxed attitude, I think how much reflex or pressure is needed to play the game depends entirely on your own playing style.

If you're the kind of person who loves to blow people's heads off with midair railgun shots in Quake, and love reflex-based gameplay, then why not play an infuse monk?

If you're the kind of person who enjoys slow, tense, but tactical strategy gameplay, why not play a domination mesmer?

If you don't really want to think about too many things at once, but rather enjoy playing something simple but critical, why not try an E/mo HP bot?

There's a build for everyone, I think, if you take the chance to try something out.

Nexus Icon · Aug 07, 2006, 06:39 PM // 18:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winstar

Loads of junk trying to tell me that my personal opinions and preferences are wrong...

Nice try, but there's no point trying to convince me otherwise.
I come from a competetive RtCW background where we ranked highly in the European ladder, and compared to that, competetive RPGs are farcical.

Hell, I knew my comment would stir up the aggressive PvP crowd, and it just serves to further my disgust with your inability to take criticism.

Oh, and your whole argument regarding builds falls apart completely as soon as you meet the opposition, as there is no way whatsoever to know what build the opposition are running.

If you want me to take you seriously, petition ANet for set build PvP, where teams have identical classes with identical skillsets and equipment.

Now THAT would be a true test of who could hit the right sequence of numbers fast enough... er, I mean "skill".

Akathrielah · Aug 07, 2006, 06:46 PM // 18:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nexus Icon

Pointless Nonsensical argument

The builds are there on observer mode, and PvP in GW is only mashing keys. AMIRITE?

So why aren't you in the top 10?

Sheesh.

The ability to adapt and defeat an opponents build, regardless of whatever they are using shows you and your teams ability to adapt as well as being able to sucessfully run and maintain a flexible build.

The fact that you can't wrap your head around any concept in competition other than mirror matches shows how limited your understanding of competitive gaming in general.

And seriously, RtCW? You can't possibly be using you and your clan's status in Return to Castle Wolfenstein, of all games.

ChaoticCoyote · Aug 07, 2006, 06:51 PM // 18:51

I rarely PvP, and if I do, it's Alliance Battles or Fort Aspenwood, usually to get Jadeite or Amber.

I do enjoy playing against other peoplel. I've been doing online RTS games since Warcraft II, and did rather well in several Age of Empires (I, II) tournaments. I also used to play a lot of Star Fleet Command online.

In GW, I much prefer the casual pace of PvE. I had a wonderful time, playing *with* other people this morning, doing the three Crystal Desert missions with my new Tyrian Necro. I prefer cooperative play over competitive in my RPGs.

I've done the Canthan campaign with *one* character, my Tyrian Ranger who does "everything". I didn't enjoy the fusion of PvP and PvE in Cantha.

I doubt there is anything ANet could do that would make me into a regular PvPer.

Mournblade · Aug 07, 2006, 07:15 PM // 19:15

I don't PVP because there is no perceived reward in it for me. I kill him, ok. He kills me, ok. If I keep doing it, i'll get better, but its still I kill him, he kills me. In PvE I see lots of different scenery (that I can usually look at for a while without someone sneaking up to kill me. hehe) I get the perceived reward of leveling, new equipment, etc. And I also get the warm fuzzy feeling of 'beating' the game, no matter how cheesy the plot is.

Oh, as an aside, I do have a little PvP background. The MUD games I used to play had what we called CPK - Chaotic Player Kill. Areas where there were no rules and you or anyone else could do whatever it took to kill any players you saw. And if you killed them you got to take some of their items. Now THAT was some adrenaline rush excitement. :P